Bötschi asks court reporter Brigitte Hürlimann: "I can tell when a defendant is only feigning remorse"

Brigitte Hürlimann has been working as a court reporter for 40 years. She is considered a profound expert on the Swiss justice system. A conversation about supposedly evil people, courtrooms and everyday life in prison.

Brigitte Hürlimann, is anyone who believes in the good in people naive?

No.

The German prison doctor Joe Bausch said in a blue News interview: "Naive is someone who believes that all people are good and nice and forgets that there are also bad people in the world."

To which I reply: Naive is someone who constantly assumes that people are primarily evil. Yes, there are people who commit crimes. However, the vast majority of perpetrators are not abysmally evil, but have a good core. Nevertheless, they let themselves be carried away to commit a crime for whatever reason.

As a court reporter, you deal with people who have committed a crime. What fascinates you about these people?

As I said, I am convinced that very few people are evil through and through. Even a brutal murderer can be intelligent and humorous. Because almost all of us humans have both good and evil in us.

The detective in Fritz Lang's classic film "M - A City in Search of a Murderer" says: "I can recognize my pigs by the way they walk.": Can you recognize criminals with your 40 years of professional experience?

No - which again has to do with the fact that criminals are often likeable people.

About the author: Bruno Bötschi

Bild: blue News

blue News editor Bruno Bötschi regularly talks to well-known personalities from Switzerland and abroad for the question-and-answer game "Bötschi fragt". He asks them lots of questions - always direct, often funny and sometimes profound. It always remains open until the very last question as to where the fast-paced ping-pong will lead.

Many people find entering a courtroom scary. How do you feel about it?

I love sitting in a courtroom and being able to watch a trial live.

Has it always been like that?

In my early 20s, I was sent into a courtroom by my superiors as a completely inexperienced journalist. I was totally overwhelmed because I only had a superficial understanding of what the trial was about. Today, after 40 years as a court reporter, I miss something if I can't sit in a courtroom at least twice a month. I often say: I need the stable smell.

What kind of court hearings do you find particularly exciting?

I have a preference for small everyday trials. I know from experience that they often have something surprising or even really explosive to offer. I'm less interested in the spectacular murder trials ...

I assume that's because all the other media also send a representative there?

That's the way it is. I prefer to be the only journalist in the courtroom and follow the trial of an outwardly inconspicuous serial burglar. During such trial days, I always get an insight into the realities of life that I don't know from my own experience.

These are moments that touch me - and that show me again and again that there are people in Switzerland who live in incredibly adverse circumstances. And then, as the icing on the cake, so to speak, they have to answer to a criminal court.

Incidentally, it is fascinating to see how people react to such a situation. Do they see an opportunity to change their lives or does the court case really drag them down into misery?

Is it really true that everyday life in court is often more bizarre and absurd than in any crime series?

What I experience in Swiss courtrooms is a hundred times more exciting and surprising than any TV thriller. Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the currently popular "true crime" documentaries and I always say to people:

If you are really interested in the subject, then sit in a courtroom for once and watch in real life how a just punishment is fought for. Many people don't know that the majority of all court hearings are open to the public - without prior notice.

Bötschi asks Joe Bausch"Prison made me realize how many psychopaths I was dealing with"

You have been working as a court reporter since 1986. You later studied law alongside your job.

I studied law at the University of Fribourg to gain a deeper understanding of the legal system and legal procedures. At the beginning of my career, as a young court reporter, I regularly only understood half of what was going on or being discussed during a trial. But studying law wasn't just a professional qualification for me, I was simply interested in the subject matter.

Was it always clear that you wanted to continue working as a court reporter after your studies - or could you also have imagined a career in the field of justice and law enforcement?

It was actually the case that I wanted to create an alternative with my studies so that I could train to become a lawyer, judge or public prosecutor later on.

Why didn't you do it?

At the end of my studies, I didn't know where I wanted to go professionally. To gain time, I wrote my dissertation on the topic of "Prostitution in Switzerland". During the writing process, I realized that I wanted to remain a journalist.

I realized that media professionals often lack legal expertise - so I decided to remain a court reporter because I was convinced I could fill a gap.

So basically, what has changed in terms of crime in Switzerland since the 1980s?

Without referring to any statistics, I would say that the changes are not too great. But I do have bad news for all criminals: the authorities are much more likely to catch them today because the police's investigative capabilities have improved spectacularly in recent decades.

How has the justice system in Switzerland changed over the last 40 years?

When I look at the judges' benches, I am pleased to see more women there today. The composition of judicial bodies has generally become more heterogeneous and diverse in recent years. And that's a good thing.

Are judges today more lenient or stricter than in your early days as a court reporter?

I would say that judges are stricter today - but that's my subjective impression.

Do criminals also have a conscience?

Yes, of course they do. The conscience of perpetrators is particularly noticeable when the judge describes the crime to them again in words or presents them with pictures of the victim. It is striking how some people lower their eyes or slump in their chairs at such moments. There are also perpetrators who start crying in the courtroom.

As an experienced court reporter, I claim to be able to sense whether such tears are genuine or whether someone is just faking remorse. I can also sense it when an offender apologizes to the victim in court but doesn't really mean it - i.e. only does it because his lawyer has perhaps advised him to do so for tactical reasons.

There are also female psychopaths, but they are much rarer. So is evil male after all?

It is a fact that there are still far more men on trial as perpetrators than women. Unfortunately, it is also a fact that the majority of victims are women - especially in the case of violent or sexual crimes.

Do you like talking to criminals?

Yes - they are usually interesting conversations. Many of us forget: We are all not only potential victims, but also potential perpetrators. Or someone close to us commits a crime.

I mention this because I am convinced that everyone has the right to a fair trial, regardless of how serious their crime was. Unfortunately, this is too often forgotten in the public debate.

You are also frequently in prison: what does that do to you?

I'm always happy when I'm out again. I get a feeling of anxiety in prisons. Incidentally, it's also one of the reasons why I don't understand why certain people claim that Switzerland has a cuddly justice system and that prison inmates are far too well off.

Anyone who makes such statements has more than likely never been in a prison and has never spoken to an inmate. The fact is that a stay in prison goes far beyond just being deprived of your freedom for a year or two.

How have you managed to maintain your critical distrust of the justice system over the years?

As a court reporter, I see things go wrong in the prison system time and time again. That's why I have an interest in change and improvement. I think it's important that sensitive issues are also discussed. What I don't want, on the other hand, is to pillory people or name culprits. My conviction is that, in the end, everyone in Switzerland benefits from humane criminal law.

What would happen if there were no more prisons?

That would be a big step into the future. Many people think that rehabilitation takes place in a prison, i.e. that the risk of recidivism decreases during imprisonment. Unfortunately, the opposite is often the case.

I recently interviewed a prisoner in the Pöschwies correctional facility in Regensdorf who will be released from prison next year. He said to me: "If I manage to live crime-free after ten years in prison, it won't be because of the prison system, but in spite of it."

For me, this man is a prime example of how people behind bars are not strengthened, but are often even more frustrated when they leave prison. At the same time, I don't give up hope that this prison inmate will find ways and means to cope in freedom after his release.

In an interview you conducted with former prison director Thomas Galli in the "Republik" magazine, he says: "People don't come out of prison better, but rather worse and weaker."

Unfortunately, this is true. I therefore understand Thomas Galli's call for our society to overcome prisons and abolish them at some point only too well. It is also a fact that prisons are extremely expensive.

Galli is convinced that there are more sensible and also cheaper types of punishment - and especially those that would benefit victims and our society as a whole more. It would therefore be a win-win situation.

But of course it is also clear that people who break the rules must be punished. And we should separate the few offenders who are really dangerous from society.

Were there any court cases that were influenced by your reporting - was a case perhaps even reopened because of this?

I was one of the first journalists to write about Brian Keller's everyday life in prison - and to draw attention to the unlawful detention regime at Pöschwies Prison. I stayed on the case, even though at some point the Zurich Director of Justice issued the "spotlight off" directive.

If we media professionals had complied with this request at the time, it would have meant nothing other than no longer reporting on the case. In hindsight, this was the moment when I realized that I had to take a closer look. The state is responsible for ensuring that human rights do not stop at the prison gates - not even for difficult prisoners.

Is your tenacity well received everywhere?

No. I notice this particularly well when I ask experts from the judicial authorities for panel discussions and receive a rejection with a flimsy explanation within a short space of time. Sometimes it seems to me that I have become persona non grata in certain circles. But I take that as a compliment because it's proof that I'm doing a good job as a court reporter.

When was the last time you broke the law?

I admit, I occasionally cross the road at a red light.

Is that all?

I'm amazingly law-abiding, which is probably due to the fact that I regularly deal with the criminal authorities - so I know exactly what punishment I could face if I break the law.

So your job as a court reporter has turned you into a well-behaved person.

It almost seems that way (laughs).

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