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"Direct exchange is important for our well-being - spending time together, having conversations and allowing friction": Michelle de Oliveira.
Image: Privat
Michelle de Oliveira has written a novel about two best friends. In this interview, the blue News columnist talks about friendship and love - and why it often becomes more difficult to make new friends as you get older.
Michelle de Oliveira, did your view of friendship change during the writing of your novel "Until the birds stop dying"?
During the writing process, I became even more aware of how important friendships are. Dealing intensively with the subject made me realize how formative and supportive these relationships are.
How do you define friendship?
For me, a friend is a person who stays by my side constantly over many years. It's less about how often you see each other and more about trust, reliability and the feeling of being there for each other. I'm still one of those people who talk about their best friend - even if that may no longer seem contemporary.
The term "friend" is used almost excessively on social media these days.
The number of followers may lead some people to believe that they have a particularly large number of friends. However, reach on social media has nothing to do with real closeness. Musician Snoop Dogg once said: "Being famous on Instagram is like being rich in Monopoly." I find this comparison apt.
Science also shows that friendships take time. Communications researcher Jeffrey Hall from the University of Kansas investigated how much time people need to spend together to reach different levels of friendship. According to his study, it takes over 200 hours spent together to be considered a close friendship. For me personally, it's not about having as many friends as possible, but as good friends as possible.
Are contacts on social networks real friends?
I wouldn't make such a sweeping assessment. There are definitely friendships that work even at a distance. Since I emigrated to Portugal with my family four and a half years ago, I have had to rely on digital channels every day to keep in touch with my friends in Switzerland.
Nevertheless, I believe that nothing can replace personal encounters. Direct interaction is important for our well-being - spending time together, having conversations and also allowing for friction. Brain research also shows that physical closeness often gives us more than exclusively digital contacts.
How many good friends does a person need?
I think sometimes just one good friend can be enough. At the same time, not every friendship has to fulfill everything. The friends who have been with me since I was a child often have a different meaning to people I only met later in life. That's why I don't think it's the number that matters, but the quality of the relationships.
Friendships don't usually follow fixed rules like a marriage does. Does that make them stronger - or more vulnerable?
I think the lack of rules makes friendships more fragile on the one hand. On the other hand, it creates a freedom that I really appreciate. You stay friends because you want to - not because there is a social expectation or a contract behind it.
Sometimes I even have the feeling that many friendships would benefit from a little more closeness. Conversely, some romantic relationships might benefit from a little more freedom.
Your novel "Until the Birds Die No More" is about two women who have known each other since childhood but have been living in different cities for several years. Mira and Chloe are each other's family, mirror and support. Is that what you should expect from a friend - and from yourself as a friend?
No, not at all. I don't think every friendship has to meet this standard. But I am very lucky to have several friends in my life with whom I share a similarly deep bond. We've known each other for many years and a trust has grown out of that. The nice thing about it is that you don't immediately fall out when things get difficult or a gentle headwind arises.
While reading your novel, I kept thinking: Mira is in love with Chloe - at least there's always talk of jealousy. True or not?
Mira admires Chloe very much and feels a strong bond with her. She also shows certain possessiveness - but not out of romantic feelings, but because of the intensity of their friendship. Jealousy is often automatically associated with romantic relationships. However, even in friendships there is envy, resentment or the fear of no longer being as close to an important person as before. Such feelings do not necessarily have to be romantic.
"People who don't have a partner are often pitied or wished that they would find someone soon": Michelle de Oliveira.
Image: Renato de Oliveira
Romantic relationships are usually exclusive, whereas this plays less of a role in friendships. What else distinguishes love from friendship?
I would actually say that I love my best friends too - just in a platonic way. The importance they have in my life is enormous. That's why it's not so easy for me to draw a clear line between love and friendship. Without pitting friendships and romantic relationships against each other, I believe that the two can look very different. Just as every romantic relationship is unique, every friendship is unique too. In their meaning and intensity, friendships can be quite comparable to romantic relationships.
Many of the differences perhaps exist primarily in our social ideas of what relationships should look like. At the same time, I have noticed that these ideas are increasingly breaking down. People are now talking much more openly about different types of relationships - for example, that romantic relationships don't necessarily have to be exclusive. This makes it more visible how diverse human relationships actually are. I find that exciting.
Why do we often accept that friendships take a back seat to partnerships?
I think this is deeply rooted in our society. It is still often assumed that people have only really arrived when they have a romantic relationship. People who don't have a partner are often pitied or wished that they would find someone soon.
Conversely, hardly anyone asks whether someone has enough close friendships. Yet they can be just as formative and fulfilling. I have friends in my circle who don't have a romantic relationship, are very happy with it and don't want to change anything. They say: I have everything I need.
An exclusive romantic relationship definitely comes at a high price: you are no longer allowed to look at other people. Is that why many people believe it has a higher value?
Yes, perhaps that plays a role. Exclusivity is often perceived as something particularly valuable. At the same time, the idea that you should focus exclusively on one person in a romantic relationship is also a social construct.
Historically, this exclusivity had social and economic reasons and offered many people security. Today, such ideas are increasingly being questioned. As women strive for equality and new ways of living together, our view of relationships is also changing. However, such developments take time.
I don't want to devalue romantic relationships - on the contrary, I have a very happy partnership myself. My point is rather that we should not automatically regard other important relationships, especially friendships, as less valuable. For me, the romantic relationship doesn't always have to take precedence over everything else.
Why does romantic love retain its special status despite the many separations - in Switzerland, around 40 percent of all marriages end in divorce?
There are various reasons for this. On the one hand, romantic relationships and marriages are still particularly privileged socially and legally. I recently read about a couple who got married mainly for bureaucratic reasons, because many things are regulated more simply by the state and you can save on numerous contracts.
What's more, having children often brings with it an additional responsibility that in most cases doesn't play a role in friendships. Such relationships therefore also have a social and perhaps even an evolutionary-biological dimension. Nevertheless, I don't believe that romantic relationships alone are the key to happiness.
Are friendships possibly a more sustainable model than romantic relationships?
Perhaps so. At the very least, I believe that in future we will think more about how we can organize our lives outside of the classic family model. Not everyone lives in a romantic relationship with children, but they still need closeness, reliability and companionship. Friendships can play an important role in this.
We talk a lot about partnerships, but more and more people are feeling lonely. Is the importance of friendships underestimated?
At the moment there is a lot of talk about the so-called dating crisis. At the same time, surveys show that young people no longer necessarily want a traditional partnership or children of their own. This also takes some of the pressure off the idea of having to find a romantic relationship.
I also find it exciting that many people - especially from Generation Z - report that they struggle to build close friendships. The TikToker Ronja Elisabeth recently published a video that touched me. In it, she says: "I baked cinnamon buns - and somehow it's little things like that that remind me how lonely I actually am." Later, the 25-year-old says: "If I got married tomorrow, I wouldn't know who to invite. I don't have any friends. So not really. No one best friend-like."
Ronja obviously hit a nerve with her openness. Her video immediately went viral.
The TikToker shows that loneliness today is not just to do with a lack of romantic relationships. Apparently, many people also find it difficult to find and maintain close friendships. Perhaps many of us actually underestimate the importance of friendships. Online dating has long been established, but hardly anyone says: "I want friends and am now actively looking for them."
Has your approach to friendships changed since moving to Portugal?
Yes, my closest friends all live in Switzerland. That means lots of voice messages, phone calls and digital contacts. At the same time, I've realized that I have to make a conscious effort to build relationships and get to know people in my new place of residence.
In doing so, I keep realizing that I've also become a little more selective over the years. Time is valuable to me and I prefer to spend it with people who really give me something. This has also meant that it has taken longer to make new friends in Portugal. It's all the nicer when you find people who make you feel: I really want to spend time with you.
To be honest, today I'd rather go for a two-hour walk by the sea with my dog than spend an hour with someone with whom I realize that the connection isn't really there ...
... or you sit down at your desk and write a novel about friendship.
Exactly.
When does the moment come when you have to end a friendship?
Friendships are often more likely to fade than to be consciously ended. However, I actually had a friendly relationship once where I actively decided that it was no longer right for me. From my point of view, the trust had been lost - and a friendship doesn't work for me without trust.
The exciting thing was that I ended this friendship with a letter. That might seem a bit unusual today. But because we had once had a very close friendship, I wanted to give it a conscious and respectful ending.
Why did you write a novel about friendship?
My best friend said in a voicemail at the end: "I don't know what I would do without you." And I thought: "I feel the same way." I couldn't let go of this thought, it kept spinning in my head and many questions about how we deal with friendship came up. Suddenly I knew: I want to write a story about this.
Is there anything else readers should know before reading your novel?
In romantic relationships, we often express appreciation as a matter of course. In friendships, we perhaps do this a little less often. That's why I'd like people to close the book at the end and then call their best friend and simply say: "Hey, I think you're great."
"Until the birds stop dying", Michelle de Oliveira, 220 pages, Pano Verlag, approx. 22.90 francs
